SchDerGrosse wrote: ↑Mon Aug 14, 2023 6:00 pm After the latest patch, missiles are autofired not from NEZ but from 75 % max range.

I have only done a few tests, but the preliminary results are that that while NEZ was overkill, 75% WRA is waay to far for an engagement range under the new missile dynamics and ordenance peter out all the time.

Will do more testing.

What your experience regarding the subject?

thewood1 wrote: ↑Tue Aug 15, 2023 7:30 pm But what do you set the AI's WRA at? I think a human player can adjust missions on the fly based on the contact and intel. But the AI is generally stuck with what its set for. Unless you go through some dynamic missions steps.

thewood1 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:48 pm Not sure why random would even be considered. Even the AI is built with a plan on how to engage expected enemy. If its not, its not a well-designed scenario. The editor allows all kinds of random things to happen that don't completely bork the AI plan. Random WRA would do exactly that.

What I think is a better consideration is for both human and AI. That would be the WRA discipline be tied to proficiency. Less experienced and under-trained aircrew might be more tempted to fire off long-range and low PH shots over better aircrew. But it should apply universally.

--[[
BETTER_BVR
by @musurca - 2/5/2023

This script automatically sets the WRA of each side's BVR weapons
based on the following rules:
* If outranged by the enemy's best AA missile, then fire at the weapon's
maximum range;
* Otherwise, fire at a Decision Range (DR), which is estimated
at 2/3 of the maximum range of the enemy's best AA missile. (We could
likely get a more precise value if we had access to fields of the
unit DB not currently reachable from Lua, but 2/3 max range seems
to produce reasonable values in many scenarios.)
* In the unlikely event that the DR is less than 1/3 of our weapon range,
then just use the No-Escape-Zone (NEZ) of our weapon.

Unit BVR engagement doctrine is also set to crank-and-drag by default,
giving the pilot the option to drag if necessary to survive.

The WRA of all WVR weapons (determined by the value of RANGE_WVR below) is
set to NEZ.
--]]

-- set this to true to print each side's most dangerous BVR weapon & range
local DEBUG_MODE = false

-- maximum range of a missile such that it's considered WVR
local RANGE_WVR = 12

-- percentage of enemy maximum range used for Decision Range
local DECISION_RANGE_PERCENT = 0.66667

-- percentage of our weapon range to compare to DR that yields NEZ
local NEZ_RANGE_PERCENT = 0.33333

-- BVR engagement logic
local BVR_LOGIC = 2 -- crank-and-drag

--target types affected by the script
local BVR_TARGET_TYPES = {
'Aircraft_5th_Generation',
'Aircraft_4th_Generation',
'Aircraft_3rd_Generation',
'Aircraft_Less_Capable'
}

local sides = VP_GetSides()
local max_range_weapon = {}
local threat_range_max = {}
local wras_adjusted = 0

function get_weapon_range_max_aa(wpn_dbid)
local db_data = ScenEdit_QueryDB('weapon', wpn_dbid)
local ranges = db_data.ranges.air
return ranges.max
end

function get_all_side_aircraft(side)
local units = {}
for _, unit_stub in ipairs(side.units) do
local u = ScenEdit_GetUnit({guid=unit_stub.guid})
if u.type == "Aircraft" then
table.insert(units, u)
elseif u.type == "Facility" or u.type == "Ship" then
if u.embarkedUnits then
if u.embarkedUnits.Aircraft then
local ac_tbl = u.embarkedUnits.Aircraft
for i, v in ipairs(ac_tbl) do
local ac = ScenEdit_GetUnit({guid=v})
table.insert(units, ac)
end
end
end
end
end

return units
end

-- STEP 1 -- calculate the maximum range of each side's AA missile arsenal
for _, side in ipairs(sides) do
local max_range = 0
local dangerous_weapon = ""

local units = get_all_side_aircraft(side)
for _, unit in ipairs(units) do
local loadout = ScenEdit_GetLoadout({
unitname=unit.guid,
LoadoutID=0
})
for _, weapon in ipairs(loadout.weapons) do
-- loop through all missiles
if weapon.wpn_type == 2001 then
--retrieve the missile's maximum AA range from the DB
local weap_range_max = get_weapon_range_max_aa(weapon.wpn_dbid)
-- compare to current maximum and replace it if it exceeds
if weap_range_max > max_range then
dangerous_weapon = weapon.wpn_name
max_range = weap_range_max
end
end
end
end

max_range_weapon[side.name] = {
range=max_range,
name=dangerous_weapon
}
end

-- STEP 2 -- calculate the "most dangerous range" for each side, based on their
-- enemy's maximum missile range
for _, side in ipairs(sides) do
local max_range = 0
for _, otherside in ipairs(sides) do
if side.name ~= otherside.name then
local posture = ScenEdit_GetSidePosture(side.name, otherside.name)
if posture == 'H' or posture == 'U' then -- if hostile or unfriendly
if max_range_weapon[otherside.name].range > max_range then
max_range = max_range_weapon[otherside.name].range
end
end
end
end
threat_range_max[side.name] = max_range
end

-- STEP 3 - estimate a custom MAR for each air unit on each side
-- and set the WRA accordingly
for _, side in ipairs(sides) do
-- this is the maximum range of our enemy's best AA missile
local threat_range = threat_range_max[side.name]

local units = get_all_side_aircraft(side)

-- now estimate a custom decision range for each air unit in BVR combat
for _, unit in ipairs(units) do
-- set our BVR engagement doctrine
ScenEdit_SetDoctrine(
{guid=unit.guid},
{bvr_logic=BVR_LOGIC}
)

local loadout = ScenEdit_GetLoadout({
unitname=unit.guid,
LoadoutID=0
})

for _, weapon in ipairs(loadout.weapons) do
-- loop through all missiles
if weapon.wpn_type == 2001 then
local wpn_range_max = get_weapon_range_max_aa(weapon.wpn_dbid)
local wra = ScenEdit_GetDoctrineWRA({
unitname=unit.guid,
target_type='Aircraft_Unspecified',
weapon_id=weapon.wpn_dbid
})

if wra.WRA then
if wpn_range_max > RANGE_WVR then
-- this is a BVR weapon

-- Estimate a Decision Range
local decision_range = DECISION_RANGE_PERCENT * threat_range
local wpn_range_nez = NEZ_RANGE_PERCENT * wpn_range_max

if decision_range > wpn_range_max then
-- we're outranged by the enemy's best BVR weapon, so
-- it's safest to fire at our weapon's maximum range
wra.WRA.FIRING_RANGE = 'Max'
elseif decision_range < wpn_range_nez then
-- we significantly outrange the enemy, so use NEZ
wra.WRA.FIRING_RANGE = 'NEZ'
else
-- use the Decision Range
wra.WRA.FIRING_RANGE = tostring(decision_range)
end
else
-- it's a WVR weapon. if we're already in the merge,
-- use the weapon's no-escape-zone
wra.WRA.FIRING_RANGE = 'NEZ'
end

for _, targ in ipairs(BVR_TARGET_TYPES) do
ScenEdit_SetDoctrineWRA(
{
unitname=unit.guid,
target_type=targ,
weapon_id=weapon.wpn_dbid
},
{
wra.WRA.QTY_SALVO,
wra.WRA.SHOOTER_SALVO,
wra.WRA.FIRING_RANGE,
wra.WRA.SELF_DEFENCE
}
)
end

wras_adjusted = wras_adjusted + 1
end
end
end
end
end

print("Done! "..tostring(wras_adjusted).." WRAs adjusted.")

if DEBUG_MODE then
print("")
for _, side in ipairs(sides) do
local weap = max_range_weapon[side.name]
if weap.range > 0 then
print(side.name.." - "..weap.name.." ("..weap.range.."nm)")
end
end
end

BDukes wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 1:30 pm Masurca wrote some code some time ago that tied some logical assumptions into the setting-specific WRA. I did try it, and it worked great IMHO. You could use this as a framework to build out your own rules etc.

thewood1 wrote: ↑Wed Aug 16, 2023 12:48 pm Not sure why random would even be considered. Even the AI is built with a plan on how to engage expected enemy. If its not, its not a well-designed scenario. The editor allows all kinds of random things to happen that don't completely bork the AI plan. Random WRA would do exactly that.

What I think is a better consideration is for both human and AI. That would be the WRA discipline be tied to proficiency. Less experienced and under-trained aircrew might be more tempted to fire off long-range and low PH shots over better aircrew. But it should apply universally.

thewood1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 2:01 pm My point isn't to keep the player guessing. A much more realistic approach for any player is that they should know approximately when the enemy is going to fire. In real life accounts I have read through, fighter pilots know generally the capabilities and tactics that an enemy aircraft are going to use. Do they know the exact WRA?...no. But they know a Mig-23 with AA-8s are most likely going to fire around 3-4 miles for a balanced kill shot. What they don't know is the engagement strategy the enemy is using. The initial engagements should tell the player.

What is a lot better is to have the AI use multiple missions. Swap missions out based on the defensive/offensive strategy of the AI side. WRA should never be just random, but tied to a decision the AI/designer has in mind. WRA at NEZ for biggest attritional threat to kill enemy aircraft. Max WRA to force an enemy aircraft into the defensive to get to a mission kill. It can be based on core mission being barrier defense, area defense, escort, etc. The AI has to use WRA in conjunction with a lot of other stuff other just how far away an enemy aircraft is. Expected enemy capabilities, EMCOM, Winchester settings, support from other units, fuel settings, etc.

Having random WRA is playing this as simplified flight sim. There should be a lot more involved than just wondering what the WRA is for the enemy.

btw, not very cool trying to bait me into saying someone builds bad scenarios. Not sure why you would try to pit people against each other ins simple discussion.

DWReese wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 2:29 pm IMO, and from my experience, 75% misses too much, and wastes missiles.

50% is obviously better, but still not that great.

I suppose that it also depends on the specific a/c involved, weapons used, and situation.

thewood1 wrote: ↑Thu Aug 17, 2023 3:20 pm One thing I played with a few months ago was setting WRA based on proficiency. A highly inexperienced pilot might be more inclined to fire at MAX. It became too much of a burden in the scenario I was building. I thinks its better to have proficiency a little more random and tie it to WRA.